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Rich Morris' Comics - YAFGC and The ComixBlog • View topic - Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoilers

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 Post subject: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoilers
PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 5:56 pm 
Puce Guardian
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A bit of philosophical debate here- when they introduced the concept of a fixed point in time, I got the idea that as the universe travels along there are just certain moments, no matter how it bends thru space in time, that the universe has to hit.

This means that you can change history as you travel, except certain spots which are so worn in the groove of time that they cannot be changed, and you better learn where they are and how to avoid getting caught up between what must happen and what you are doing there at the time.

I took Amye's death not to be a fixed unchangeable point, but a point that could be changed, but would likely change a lot of history that we know. Something a wise time traveler would accept shouldnt be changed, but one not so wise could have changed if someone didn't stop them.

What do you think? Inevitable, or simply lucky for us that live in a future it created? (If we are in favor of an unmarried Elizabeth or start of democracy and revolutions, etc. )


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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2010 3:48 pm 
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I take the approach presented (at least, in part) in the FASA Doctor Who RPG gamebook.

Time flows like a river, and certain points are deeper than others. "Shallow" points, called Temporal Nexus Points, are dangerously pivotal points that are easily diverted. Earth primarily exists in one of these strategic Nexus Points, especially around the 60's - 80's...and it looks like we're heading for another one. That makes it very attractive for aliens as an invasion point, since once you control a major Nexus Point, other events will be easy to divert to and from. They aren't necessarily aware of this and sometimes the ebb and flow of time guides others there.
This would make the Earth particular vulnerable and in need of a guardian or two.

Other points are deeper and set and only some very serious deviation will effect it at all. Otherwise events roll over the obstacle, recreating the main points as they were.

However, major changes from a Nexus Point that feed into one of these deeper points can drain it like a dam in a river. So ultimately, the Universe could be destroyed or change...or cease to exist.

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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 5:33 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 11:25 am 
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That's sensible. Mind you, I'm not against fixed points, as long as they're kept rare.

Besides, the whole point of fixed points isnt that you're not supposed to change them, it's that they're going to happen no matter what, and it takes more than what most time lords are capable of, to attempt to say otherwise.

But the idea that Earth gets attacked so often because it's in a causal nexus is pretty good, it explains so much of our Doctor Who history! (It's a pity the Shadow Proclamation doesnt pay special attention to Earth then, giving it the same protection any level 5 planet gets ... then again, how would the Earth fare if the Juddoon were all that stood - or always stood - between the inhabitants and alien invaders? A couple of "They went that away!"s and the Juddoon would be tricked and the Earth would be taken.)

That would make us a puddle along the river's turn, flowing along at a shallow level with a couple of surprisingly deep points <g> to combine all the theories.


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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:28 am 
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Hmm, well chewing on it a bit further (and with the half of a bottle of red :wacky: ) I'm toyed with the following ideas.

At some points the 'time stream' is less of a river, but is more of a water flow through a levee. The path of the levee is how time 'should' flow, with everything set out as to how it should unfold - the strictly determinist outcome.

The range of events which can happen is defined by the levees 'width'. On the whole things will occur along the course of the stream, but within the stream currents and eddies allow for a wide range of motion - but the motion on the whole is more or less fixed over the long term. So things will happen as expected with only the minor details changing (the 'deep' time) so visiting here and playing around is 'safe' - the fixed points.

However at some points, the levees are not in too good condition. For whatever reason the boundaries are somewhat brittle, and if they are hit at just the right point, they can crack open and the stream shoots off on a new course. Mess around at these points and you risk something nasty happening.

Earth's levee for various reasons (see below) is falling to pieces and holds together by good intentions and a prayer. All it would take for the levee to crack is someone to give a whack in the right location and the stream would break out of its pre-set boundaries and shoot off on a new course. You might get lucky and only hit a fairly strong part and things continue as normal, or you may hit the right spot and the next words are 'Oops'. As with all breaking levees the result can range from disasterous to mostly harmless - the 'nexus points' are somewhat 'fixed time', but if you are playing around near one you are begging for trouble.

So why are Earths "time levees" in such a bad state? Well, here I fly off into rampant speculation and gobblydegook *hic*.

Okay - however long ago, the Time Lords started on their own Manhattan project for time travel. Of course such potentially dangerous machines and technologies in their own back yard was begging for trouble to they looked around for their own Trinity site. After poking around they found an uninhabited rock circling a unimpressive yellow star out in the boondocks of the galaxy.

All those experiments were done pretty much the same way as the real Manhattan project - varying from brute force solutions to elegant ones. From this they learnt enough to proceed to the next stage (Omega's black hole & singularity) but it also had the side effect of making an absolute mess of the local 'time levees'. Like the real Manhattan project things like this were speculated to happen (It may set the atmosphere on fire) but no one really expected it to - but in this case it did (Oops).

There was also one additional upshot. Some time lord DNA (from skin flakes or something) was left behind after the project was completed. Nothing worth noting on a barren rock until the Jagaroth blew up thier warp drive on the surface (the time cracks and fissures may be why they crashed in the first place). Some of the resulting simple replicating protiens had the genetics of the time lords fused into them - and they went on to form cells and then lifeforms and eventually evolved into us. So thats why time lords and humans look roughly the same (with differences due to X millions years of evolution divergance) - they are the same. :dizzy:

And for a last bit of babbling - the Shadow Proclamation never really got built upon, but so far we have only seen the muscle (Juddoon) and an obstructive pompous bureaucrat. It would not be beyond speculation for these low level plebs to know nothing about Earths nexus state. Maybe the higher up have a better idea and hide behind 'Yeah yeah, just a boring L5 planet, nothing to see here).

Hmm, thats is waaaay to much rambling. Me go sleepy now....

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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:03 am 
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LC that is so deep and plausible, just a great way to look at it all (hell, after all these years I had forgoten the Jagaroth incident). How do you avoid the headaches that temporal theory gives everyone?

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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 3:03 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:05 pm 
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Should I even ask about the Sphynx incident?

Actually with my theory I was equating shallow with easily changeable and deep as undivertable, but I guess it's matter of semantics as both ways of looking at things work on the same principle.

In the audio series there's rather a long combination of stories that reveal Rasillion(sp) was a genocidal maniac in his day, and went around secretly stopping the evolution of most species that didn't look like how he thought intelligent life should look like - explaining why most species are vaguely bipedal and somewhat resemble Time Lords. I don't think the TV show intends to make that their canon, but it was a tweak at having human actors play most of the aliens on the show (aside from the occasional tinfoil and puppets, and nowadays, CGI).

If we throw in the fixed points of time at the radio show, it does explain all those species he couldn't get rid of that weren't humanoid -some moments those species had to be there for. Well, as well as those that he couldn't get to - it's a big universe after all, even for a genocidal leader of the time lords.

While I'm not going to subscribe to your idea that alternate time lines are leaky plugs that eventually dissipate... I do like the theory! Time as a really bad plumbing job .. soon to replace string theory 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:44 pm 
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lol - actually there are video fics out there, a show on "imagination channel" that someone based on my handle, named M'reen's 7 <g> I laughed so hard that I stole the show's icon for my own. 8) Turn about being fair play and all.

It was a collage nickname - my roommate was Elisabeth and when pming/emailing her boyfriend I got tired of typing it out over and over and started typing E-beth, and he loved it and promptly named me M-reen, and it stuck.

But I'd take Zen/Liberator over a lot of ships - for one, it had a treasure room! But the M'reen 7 ship in the fic wasn't bad either <g>

I can see a certain amount of Mary-Sue ism in some of the alternate timelines, but not all, and never minded them. I think they often show the writers, tired of TV executives limiting the drama and never letting anything different happen, find a way to step out and let things actually happen and deal with the results, if only in short term - the result is there are usually more drama in an alternate universe than the main one.
In fact some of my very favorite eps contain them - in SG-1, But For the Grace of God, (that's the title I think) is one of my favorites. Having Sam and Jack ship wasn't the main reason, it was dealing with an invasion, failing, and then having to deal with it all over again at home. DK, one of my favorite writers and executive for Farscape, wrote that one, refusing to do just the formula, they go thru the gate, they fight, they come back, and instead veering the story down another path with the magic (dimensional travel) mirror.

Farscape -notice the nice segue that you'll see me bring things back full circle here - had a fantastic idea that you'd love about alternate time lines tho.They held there was one time line, but as you traveled down wormholes(made using black holes) it was possible to bring an Unrealized Reality into play. If you knew what you were doing, you could take a side step into an alternate reality, something that is created by changes in the time line and could become the new reality - but if you stepped out quick enough, it would snap back to the old path. If you didn't know what you were doing, or were plain insane, you could end up making the alternate reality the new reality, and the one you came from would be unrealized.

This also mean if you accidentally time traveled instead of just falling into an unrealized realty, you could make sure you didnt change history if you focused on fixing the first things you set wrong.

This was a fascinating idea, that every glimpse into an alternate reality was not so much alternate, but actually making duck soup out of everything you knew, and you had to fix it fast or it would stay that way - but eventually (rather quickly in fact) they lost sight of that concept and made these unrealized realities into plain old alternate realities, something you could visit and come back from by choice, only affecting events in the other reality. All about taking a trip, being gone and then back home for dinner to a reality that you left for a bit, rather than a deadly lesson in physics. I was terribly disappointed in them for that, as it was the coolest new twist I'd seen a show take with the concept.

In reality, I don't think we are actually protected by causality, and that a time machine could wipe out things - but we'd never know.


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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:42 pm 
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Of course, there can't be ANY fixed points in time (in the sense of being truly unalterable) in Earth's history after 1911, since we saw a time track where Sutekh rose and annihilated all life on the planet that year. Better to dump the notion of unalterable events and go with the FASA "some events can only be changed with great difficulty" approach.


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 Post subject: Re: Amye's death an actual fixed point? Stalker/Norfolk spoi
PostPosted: Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:28 am 
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Well, we saw a dusty planet without much life, but who's to say that a certain family line wasn't still hiding underground - that Sutek himself might have found and sent a certain woman and some crew to Mars to make a suitable colony to do something with his prison - and then something happened and her heroic death inspired what was left of humanity, and her granddaughter in particular, to take to the stars on their own?

Dedicated fans can usually find their way out of canon messes like that. :smartass:


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